Was talking to a guy at a soccer game this week and he was roommates with someone in a "high position" in an NFL team's front office (he wouldn't tall me which team and I didn't feel like I should ask). We were talking about the business of drafting/trading/free agency, etc and he was telling me that the Giants have actually drafted well, and that it's the player development and utilization that has failed.
Yes nothing new we know that. But surprisingly he told me that some of the Giants' deadbeats (Neal, Banks, Slayton, etc) actually are potentially high value targets by other teams based on the fact that teams recognize the Giants have good players but screw them up along the way and aren't able to tap into their true potential, misplay them out of position, or misuse them. Looking at history (Shepard, Flowers, DJ, and I'm sure others, etc) it's hard to argue with that.
That was pretty damning but goes to show that our problems lie much deeper than HC or injuries. Hopefully if these guys are moved they get back something more than a new kicking tee for them.
IIRC these problems with player development have been a chronic problem with the organization going back at least Tom Coughlin's days.
Is this a crazy idea? Ownership's insistence on trying to win this year, every year, is putting pressure on the GMs and coaches to plug in mediocre veterans rather than living with the growing pains of young players on the way up.
In short we have all seen this franchise draft badly and for too long a stretch of time, notably in the early to mid teens save for a Beckham here or JPP there. I don't see that now.
The team is poorly coached it's beyond obvious at this point.
Bullshit. Daniel Jones is playing well because he always had talent and in Indy he’s surrounded by a lot of good players. Same goes for Saquon, McKinney, Love, etc.
Evan Engram went to Jacksonville and didn’t do anything that was superior to what he’d done for the Giants. Kadarious Toney wasn’t the slightest bit more dependable with the Chiefs. The difference was they didn’t need him to be more than he was like the Giants did.
Deonte Banks and Evan Neal aren’t turning into anything good somewhere else.
Why was Jones so bad here save for 2022. Why was Barkley only good here only to be great in Philly. Why do we see a random decent but flawed guard go on to be a little better somewhere else. Why is Shepard still a valuable player on a good Tampa team yet he was all but worthless here save for 16-18, and back then he was in his prime.
Why was Julius Randle a stat padding loser before he came to NYC? Follow the pattern in his career. He developed in NY under a better coaching staff.
It's always coaching.
Or having hired bad coaches
An argument for keeping him???
Schoens argument for hiring Daboll was “alignment” and being in “lockstep “
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Why was Jones so bad here save for 2022. Why was Barkley only good here only to be great in Philly. Why do we see a random decent but flawed guard go on to be a little better somewhere else. Why is Shepard still a valuable player on a good Tampa team yet he was all but worthless here save for 16-18, and back then he was in his prime.
Why was Julius Randle a stat padding loser before he came to NYC? Follow the pattern in his career. He developed in NY under a better coaching staff.
It's always coaching.
I am not attacking the asshat, I am attacking the premise (meaning I don't doubt he got this tidbit). If other teams valued these players, they would have given us something for them. Evan Neal has no value to the Giants, if we were offered a back of the lot 7th, we would have taken it. That these guys were not traded just shows you that they are not valued elsewhere.
This reminds me of the Daniel Jones years where his supporters argued how he was good but it was his OL, lack of weapons, poor play calling and bad coaching that left our offense never doing anything and somehow disembodying the QB from the results of the offense
The GM is the person most directly responsible for the results of the organization
Or having hired bad coaches
An argument for keeping him???
Schoens argument for hiring Daboll was “alignment” and being in “lockstep “
And, the funny thing is that if this was truly coaching and that was the issue then why wouldn't have Schoen fired Daboll last year where it would have been completely palatable. So now, he brought back Daboll, and the excuse after an almost identical season is that the coaching is bad. I mean these arguments don't even pass the laugh test. If they wanted to be judged differently the time to do that was last off season. I am not giving Schoen a year 5 to now hire a coach AND test out the hypothesis that this was all coaching. That was year four. Our brain trust brought them back together and now they sink or swim together.
I always felt that when we hired Schoen and Daboll we would see the exact opposite of what has come to fruition due to their being history and a feeling of unity of purpose.
As a sidenote, this was definitely a problem during the Reese/Coughlin era. And there are plenty of examples of how disjointed those two were with regard to building the puzzle. For the record, I always thought Reese got way too much credit for being savvy.
Evan Neal isn't going to get better with another team. Sorry.
This economy is nuts! LOL!
This reminds me of the Daniel Jones years where his supporters argued how he was good but it was his OL, lack of weapons, poor play calling and bad coaching that left our offense never doing anything and somehow disembodying the QB from the results of the offense
The GM is the person most directly responsible for the results of the organization
I agree with this. Let's say Schoen is drafting good and we're not developing the players. We've still had a lot of odd personnel things go on over the past few years.
The kicker handling is head scratching, we've been rolling with 2 RBs, we've fielded 51 man rosters for games multiple times and despite the constant talk about being "Cap Healthy" we seem to be hamstrung to make moves during the year.
Maybe things have been made to look worse than our coaching staff, but that doesn't mean our front office has been stellar.
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In comment 17002150 Essex said:
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Why was Jones so bad here save for 2022. Why was Barkley only good here only to be great in Philly. Why do we see a random decent but flawed guard go on to be a little better somewhere else. Why is Shepard still a valuable player on a good Tampa team yet he was all but worthless here save for 16-18, and back then he was in his prime.
Why was Julius Randle a stat padding loser before he came to NYC? Follow the pattern in his career. He developed in NY under a better coaching staff.
It's always coaching.
I am not attacking the asshat, I am attacking the premise (meaning I don't doubt he got this tidbit). If other teams valued these players, they would have given us something for them. Evan Neal has no value to the Giants, if we were offered a back of the lot 7th, we would have taken it. That these guys were not traded just shows you that they are not valued elsewhere.
Could be that accepting a 7th for the 7th overall pick is an admission of a poor draft or poor coaching. Or maybe Schoen knows already that new coaching is coming in 2026.
Easy answer. Teams know the Giants will let these guys go as FA's, because they won't develop here, and are simply a drain on the Giants cap. All any teamn has to do is wait have to do is pick up players like Hyatt, Banks, Neal for peanuts as FA's (since their reputation is shot), and try to make them reclamation projects.
No need to give up assets. They are presuming the Giants will remain dysfunctional. At this point, that's a good bet.
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Easy answer. Teams know the Giants will let these guys go as FA's, because they won't develop here, and are simply a drain on the Giants cap. All any teamn has to do is wait have to do is pick up players like Hyatt, Banks, Neal for peanuts as FA's (since their reputation is shot), and try to make them reclamation projects.
No need to give up assets. They are presuming the Giants will remain dysfunctional. At this point, that's a good bet.
This. Why trade for someone when you can pick them up as a FA. And these guys wouldn't contribute immediately this year b/c they are reclamation projects, hence trading for them has no benefit.
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In comment 17002150 Essex said:
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Easy answer. Teams know the Giants will let these guys go as FA's, because they won't develop here, and are simply a drain on the Giants cap. All any teamn has to do is wait have to do is pick up players like Hyatt, Banks, Neal for peanuts as FA's (since their reputation is shot), and try to make them reclamation projects.
No need to give up assets. They are presuming the Giants will remain dysfunctional. At this point, that's a good bet.
This. Why trade for someone when you can pick them up as a FA. And these guys wouldn't contribute immediately this year b/c they are reclamation projects, hence trading for them has no benefit.
No. Not this. If these guys are prized assets then why wouldn't you trade a 7th round pick for this highly valued asset instead of competing with 31 other teams for that highly valued asset. Most smart teams if they really felt there was an undervalued asset would try to get them in the fold as quick as possible and avoid competition especially with a seventh round pick that has such a low hit rate. Again, these are not highly valued assets imo.
This economy is nuts! LOL!
LOL use logic much?
They were roommates in college and are still close friends to this day.
Did I really need to explain that?
Shepherd was a guy on his last legs. the fact that he plays for Tampa doesn't mean much, his production isn't much different. The guy was physically shot.
Flowers??? he had his career reclamation by switching to Guard and being an average Guard.
Neal, Banks etc- I highly doubt these guys are HIGHLY sought after players. That sounds pretty much like BS to me.
For all the "giants don't develop players etc" I will also say we have grabbed scrap heap guys and they had their best years with us- Hodgins (look at him now, a bad Steelers WR corps won't activate him off their PS), Gunner O (return TD, has cut down his fumbling issues etc)..
The Giants definitely have room to improve but I am not buying this dude has any specifics on the Giants themselves.
Good one.
They can leave together
I can't think of any OL/DL drafted in the last 16 years who went on to have significant success elsewhere.
I've always been a Shep fan. Unfortunate with the injuries but get him away from New York and...
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This can be a problem in any company. These coaches don't seem to have the ability to reach their players on a mental level.
Bullshit. Daniel Jones is playing well because he always had talent and in Indy he’s surrounded by a lot of good players. Same goes for Saquon, McKinney, Love, etc.
Evan Engram went to Jacksonville and didn’t do anything that was superior to what he’d done for the Giants. Kadarious Toney wasn’t the slightest bit more dependable with the Chiefs. The difference was they didn’t need him to be more than he was like the Giants did.
Deonte Banks and Evan Neal aren’t turning into anything good somewhere else.
I bet Banks will. He's too talented. He needs a refresh, even if it's a new HC here.
They also built the offense around Barkley and Jones ability to run to cut down on Jones' turnovers. Again, this was excellent work by Daboll to work with the strength of his players.
The big issue with JS an BD is how they handled the Jones/Barkley offseason after the 2022-23 season. It has spirraled out of control since then.
They have had decent drafts, trades and free agent signings but just as many blunders. Letting McKinney go and replacing him with a rookie in Nubin has not worked out. Letting Julian Love leave for peanuts also did not look to be smart.
Not sure who will be here for next year but I know that neither guy has been perfect.
Well, it could easily be that teams figure it will take a full offseason to get them ready to play. Why pay with draft capital now when you can get them for nothing in March. And a team trying to get to the playoffs figures they would be no help this year. See: Jones.
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have gone onto the flexible Nacua and Smith-Njigba type WRs (meanwhile we have Wandale, Slayton and Hyatt). It's actually kind of ironic as Sterling Shepard and Golden Tate were really the early prototypes of those guys (too bad Shepard was kind of chronically injured).
I've always been a Shep fan. Unfortunate with the injuries but get him away from New York and...
Great fucking blocker...
Though you can argue the system is maybe not getting as much as it should out of guys like Banks, Hyatt, etc.
Hyatt and Banks both at least showed they were nfl caliber at times in their rookie year. To have them go from that to basically “zero” is a bit strange and definitely coaching related
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In comment 17002131 bradshaw44 said:
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This can be a problem in any company. These coaches don't seem to have the ability to reach their players on a mental level.
Bullshit. Daniel Jones is playing well because he always had talent and in Indy he’s surrounded by a lot of good players. Same goes for Saquon, McKinney, Love, etc.
Evan Engram went to Jacksonville and didn’t do anything that was superior to what he’d done for the Giants. Kadarious Toney wasn’t the slightest bit more dependable with the Chiefs. The difference was they didn’t need him to be more than he was like the Giants did.
Deonte Banks and Evan Neal aren’t turning into anything good somewhere else.
I bet Banks will. He's too talented. He needs a refresh, even if it's a new HC here.
My prediction when the Giants took Banks was that he'd become very good after his second contract.
The best I can hope for is that its EXACTLY like American Psycho, Tim and Chris just shows up to the office to listen to music and make dinner reservations so they can show off their fancy titled business cards to friends.
Shepherd was a guy on his last legs. the fact that he plays for Tampa doesn't mean much, his production isn't much different. The guy was physically shot.
Flowers??? he had his career reclamation by switching to Guard and being an average Guard.
Neal, Banks etc- I highly doubt these guys are HIGHLY sought after players. That sounds pretty much like BS to me.
For all the "giants don't develop players etc" I will also say we have grabbed scrap heap guys and they had their best years with us- Hodgins (look at him now, a bad Steelers WR corps won't activate him off their PS), Gunner O (return TD, has cut down his fumbling issues etc)..
The Giants definitely have room to improve but I am not buying this dude has any specifics on the Giants themselves.
The rare valid post around here. Thanks.
And if anybody cares to look at facts before they throw out nonsense examples like Shepard...go look at the ridiculous second contract the Giants gave this guy. Crazy money at that time for his talent level.
The Giants suck for numerous reasons, not just any one...like lack of development. Numerous reasons require numerous improvements and won't be summed up in one thread.
Yes sir, coaching isn't the issue with Neal, Slayton, Banks, and Hyatt. It's either balance, poor hands, or work ethic/attitude.
I can't think of any OL/DL drafted in the last 16 years who went on to have significant success elsewhere.
Dex had two staffs using him incorrectly.
This is more cover by the family for their shitty results
What style of team is this?
Zone blocking or gap?
Running or passing?
Aggressive or passive D?
Where should premium resources be invested?
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It seems to me the Giants collect random talent, and don't have a clear vision of what kind of team they want. The pieces (coaches & players) don't fit together.
Bull$hit, Puka was drafted in the FIFTH round. Purely a lucky pick the NO GM in the NFL thought would amount to anything. Nothing to do with flexibility LOL God the nonsense around here.