|
|
|
| Quote: |
| Nagy didn’t call plays in Kansas City — that duty is handled by head coach Andy Reid. The shared connection to Reid — Harbaugh was the three-time Super Bowl champion’s special teams coordinator with the Eagles from 1999 to 2006 and his defensive backs coach in 2007 — surely boosted Nagy’s candidacy. In some ways, the 47-year-old Nagy’s experience makes his hiring less inspiring. The warts of a first-time coordinator like Davis Webb, who was a Giants candidate before getting promoted to offensive coordinator by the Denver Broncos on Monday, are unknown, whereas Nagy’s four years running the show in Chicago provide ample evidence of his shortcomings. The Bears ranked ninth in scoring in Nagy’s first season as head coach in 2018. Paired with the best defense in the league, orchestrated by coordinator Vic Fangio, the Bears surprisingly went 12-4 and Nagy was named Coach of the Year. The offensive production immediately dropped off a cliff, as Chicago ranked 29th, 22nd and 27th in scoring and went 8-8, 8-8 and 6-11 over Nagy’s final three seasons. He was fired, with a 34-31 career record, after the 2021 season. Nagy coached a pair of first-round quarterbacks in Chicago. He inherited Mitch Trubisky, who was the No. 2 pick in the 2017 draft. Trubisky enjoyed the best season of his career in 2018 but failed to develop. He was benched early in the 2020 season for journeyman Nick Foles. |
The issue is they all had 1 year and then disappeared. Brian Daboll and Mike Kafka had 1 year with Daniel Jones. That didn't make us a consistent offense.
Quote:
the "expert" consensus that everything good that happened in KC was due to Reid and everything bad was due to Nagy.
OK
wasn't Reid successful with KC after Nagy left for Chicago? Its one thing to say that Nagy should not get any credit whatsoever, but it is a tough sell to say that their success was due to Nagy, when 1) Nagy has left and Mahomes made two super bowls and 2) Andy Reid is a known QB guru. The bottom line is that Nagy had a chance on his own without Reid and he was not very successful. Take it for what it is worth, but I don't think you get to just say he also developed Mahommes and forget that Mahommes was being developed by the best QB coach in the business and then forget when he was not that his record with two mediocre qbs was mediocre. We will see what he does here.
You're arguing against a point no one made. No one said Nagy deserves more credit than Andy Reid for the Chiefs success.
Also, Fields and Trubisky are not mediocre QB's. Bryce Young, Mac Jones, Daniel Jones, Tua, current version of Aaron Rodgers are mediocre QB's. Nobody has given Trubisky an actual chance to compete for a starting job since he left Chicago and despite Fields' getting numerous chances because of his "upside", that's over now. Those are not mediocre, they're flat out bad.
Quote:
the "expert" consensus that everything good that happened in KC was due to Reid and everything bad was due to Nagy.
OK
wasn't Reid successful with KC after Nagy left for Chicago? Its one thing to say that Nagy should not get any credit whatsoever, but it is a tough sell to say that their success was due to Nagy, when 1) Nagy has left and Mahomes made two super bowls and 2) Andy Reid is a known QB guru. The bottom line is that Nagy had a chance on his own without Reid and he was not very successful. Take it for what it is worth, but I don't think you get to just say he also developed Mahommes and forget that Mahommes was being developed by the best QB coach in the business and then forget when he was not that his record with two mediocre qbs was mediocre. We will see what he does here.
When did KC win their Super Bowls? Who was the OC?
Quote:
Had their best years with Nagy by far. In Trubisky's case, it was the only bit of success he had anywhere. In Smith's case, it was his best over a long career and lead the league in (low) int%, adjusted yards per attempt, and passer rating.
The issue is they all had 1 year and then disappeared. Brian Daboll and Mike Kafka had 1 year with Daniel Jones. That didn't make us a consistent offense.
Having a consistent offense year-to-year with a bad QB and a solid to good, but not elite supporting cast just doesn't happen in the modern NFL.
His shtick has been the “truth to incompetence” writers, but I wonder what happens if Harbaugh has success here? Will he be able to adjust or will he turn into Pat Leonard?
Quote:
In comment 17097565 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
the "expert" consensus that everything good that happened in KC was due to Reid and everything bad was due to Nagy.
OK
wasn't Reid successful with KC after Nagy left for Chicago? Its one thing to say that Nagy should not get any credit whatsoever, but it is a tough sell to say that their success was due to Nagy, when 1) Nagy has left and Mahomes made two super bowls and 2) Andy Reid is a known QB guru. The bottom line is that Nagy had a chance on his own without Reid and he was not very successful. Take it for what it is worth, but I don't think you get to just say he also developed Mahommes and forget that Mahommes was being developed by the best QB coach in the business and then forget when he was not that his record with two mediocre qbs was mediocre. We will see what he does here.
When did KC win their Super Bowls? Who was the OC?
KC could have had OC Inanimate Rod and still won. Tennessee made the playoffs with Shane Bowen as DC (as well as the year prior when Bowen was the de facto play caller) and look how he did with the Giants when he did not have Mike Vrabel looking over his shoulder.
Quote:
Had their best years with Nagy by far. In Trubisky's case, it was the only bit of success he had anywhere. In Smith's case, it was his best over a long career and lead the league in (low) int%, adjusted yards per attempt, and passer rating.
The issue is they all had 1 year and then disappeared. Brian Daboll and Mike Kafka had 1 year with Daniel Jones. That didn't make us a consistent offense.
They are very limited QBs, and they both competed with him as coach. It's amazing people don't understand this.
Smith had winning records with the Chiefs. They just couldn't get over the hump, so Reid drafted Mahomes. Nagy was 34-31 with Trubisky and Fields as his QBs.
He's a solid, not terribly exciting hire.
But the point everyone keeps missing is his resume is better than the other guys being discussed. (I laid this out in the other thread).
Quote:
In comment 17097640 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Had their best years with Nagy by far. In Trubisky's case, it was the only bit of success he had anywhere. In Smith's case, it was his best over a long career and lead the league in (low) int%, adjusted yards per attempt, and passer rating.
The issue is they all had 1 year and then disappeared. Brian Daboll and Mike Kafka had 1 year with Daniel Jones. That didn't make us a consistent offense.
Having a consistent offense year-to-year with a bad QB and a solid to good, but not elite supporting cast just doesn't happen in the modern NFL.
Nagy can't make a delicious steak dinner out of a pile of shit, so he sucks. Don't we get that?
Nagy largely failed Trubisky in Chicago. The blame is never totally one sided but read up on some of what happened here. He ignored Trubisky’s suggestions on what he felt comfortable with, blew up on him in front of the whole team which didn’t go well (Trubisky was well liked). When Foles got hurt Trubisky went back in and played better under the OC Lazor who was calling plays at that point. Nagy no showed an end of year meeting with Trubisky who had brought prepared notes.
He won’t be able to pull some of that as an OC which is good.
You can’t totally discount Nagy and assign all credit to Reid for Mahomes - you also cannot totally excuse him for Trubisky being a bust.
Quote:
In comment 17097635 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 17097565 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
the "expert" consensus that everything good that happened in KC was due to Reid and everything bad was due to Nagy.
OK
wasn't Reid successful with KC after Nagy left for Chicago? Its one thing to say that Nagy should not get any credit whatsoever, but it is a tough sell to say that their success was due to Nagy, when 1) Nagy has left and Mahomes made two super bowls and 2) Andy Reid is a known QB guru. The bottom line is that Nagy had a chance on his own without Reid and he was not very successful. Take it for what it is worth, but I don't think you get to just say he also developed Mahommes and forget that Mahommes was being developed by the best QB coach in the business and then forget when he was not that his record with two mediocre qbs was mediocre. We will see what he does here.
When did KC win their Super Bowls? Who was the OC?
KC could have had OC Inanimate Rod and still won. Tennessee made the playoffs with Shane Bowen as DC (as well as the year prior when Bowen was the de facto play caller) and look how he did with the Giants when he did not have Mike Vrabel looking over his shoulder.
Mike, Essex said Nagy wasn't here for the SBs. That's incorrect. He has two rings as OC.
You're clearly one of the guys who thinks everything good that happened in KC was due to Reid and everything bad was due to Nagy. I will never subscribe to that kind of black-and-white thinking on any subject.
Quote:
In comment 17097640 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Had their best years with Nagy by far. In Trubisky's case, it was the only bit of success he had anywhere. In Smith's case, it was his best over a long career and lead the league in (low) int%, adjusted yards per attempt, and passer rating.
The issue is they all had 1 year and then disappeared. Brian Daboll and Mike Kafka had 1 year with Daniel Jones. That didn't make us a consistent offense.
They are very limited QBs, and they both competed with him as coach. It's amazing people don't understand this.
Smith had winning records with the Chiefs. They just couldn't get over the hump, so Reid drafted Mahomes. Nagy was 34-31 with Trubisky and Fields as his QBs.
He was 34-31 due to that Defense. The scoring offense was crap the final 3 years in Chicago. I am not saying he is bad because he didn't have year after year success, but there is zero other years after the first year where he looked like an NFL level playcaller.
Quote:
In comment 17097653 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 17097635 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 17097565 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
the "expert" consensus that everything good that happened in KC was due to Reid and everything bad was due to Nagy.
OK
wasn't Reid successful with KC after Nagy left for Chicago? Its one thing to say that Nagy should not get any credit whatsoever, but it is a tough sell to say that their success was due to Nagy, when 1) Nagy has left and Mahomes made two super bowls and 2) Andy Reid is a known QB guru. The bottom line is that Nagy had a chance on his own without Reid and he was not very successful. Take it for what it is worth, but I don't think you get to just say he also developed Mahommes and forget that Mahommes was being developed by the best QB coach in the business and then forget when he was not that his record with two mediocre qbs was mediocre. We will see what he does here.
When did KC win their Super Bowls? Who was the OC?
KC could have had OC Inanimate Rod and still won. Tennessee made the playoffs with Shane Bowen as DC (as well as the year prior when Bowen was the de facto play caller) and look how he did with the Giants when he did not have Mike Vrabel looking over his shoulder.
Mike, Essex said Nagy wasn't here for the SBs. That's incorrect. He has two rings as OC.
You're clearly one of the guys who thinks everything good that happened in KC was due to Reid and everything bad was due to Nagy. I will never subscribe to that kind of black-and-white thinking on any subject.
I think everything good and bad was due to Reid
And what happened to all those coordinators? They made out poorly as Head Coaches. Doesn’t mean they weren’t excellent coordinators.
Quote:
In comment 17097651 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 17097640 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Had their best years with Nagy by far. In Trubisky's case, it was the only bit of success he had anywhere. In Smith's case, it was his best over a long career and lead the league in (low) int%, adjusted yards per attempt, and passer rating.
The issue is they all had 1 year and then disappeared. Brian Daboll and Mike Kafka had 1 year with Daniel Jones. That didn't make us a consistent offense.
They are very limited QBs, and they both competed with him as coach. It's amazing people don't understand this.
Smith had winning records with the Chiefs. They just couldn't get over the hump, so Reid drafted Mahomes. Nagy was 34-31 with Trubisky and Fields as his QBs.
He was 34-31 due to that Defense. The scoring offense was crap the final 3 years in Chicago. I am not saying he is bad because he didn't have year after year success, but there is zero other years after the first year where he looked like an NFL level playcaller.
He had a 12-4 season and 2 8-8 with Trubisky as QB. Why are we shitting on that because the team had a good defense? They had atrocious offensive talent. Do you expect 14 wins?
Quote:
and then there's bad situations that are near untenable. The Chiefs offense last year was awful on paper. You can't run and hide from that no matter who the QB is. Non dominant OL. Bad RBs. Bad WRs. Fading TE. We're gonna conveniently absolve the HC, Reid, who RUNS that offense and blame Nagy? Why not blame Reid and even MAhomes? We used to blame the QB for everything here but not anymore? And we're gonna condemn Nagy for losing with the likes of Trubisky and Fields? Who the hell wins with those guys? The only coach to win with Trubisky was....Nagy.
HE's not running the NYG offense here. He's helping Harbaugh with his offense. This isn't the end all be all coach for this team. Harbaugh is and then the DC is. IN that order. Just my take I am surprised so many are so angry about an asst coach who has been a HC before. How bad could this hire really be? If this hire proves to be a massive failure, we have bigger problems than Nagy. Just my take.
I mean most coordinator hires look fine on paper (good and bad). I remember BBI being pretty happy about the hiring of Shane Bowen and it's revisionist for anybody to suggest at the time he didn't have the resume of a good/solid hire. I have no clue how well Nagy will do here but people were citing Bowen's defensive stats with the Titans until the cows came home and then he was a disaster. How many OC/DC hires "look bad" at the time of the hire in the year 2026? Again, not saying that's Nagy but he absolutely could end up being a poor hire. Just as Dennard Wilson could be.
Good post as usual Dan. Coordinator hires are not easy, people often get the initial responses wrong, just need to trust that Harbough gets this right.
I would have liked Monken better but I'm pretty sure there were plenty of fans in Baltimore underwhelmed by him too. I remember fans being excited about Bettcher and moving on from Spags.
Nagy has more similarities to the Garrett hire than I'd prefer, though I was ok with the Garrett hire at the time, and Harbough is obviously a much more credible decision maker.
Trubisky - 39 Games & 38 Starts w/ Nagy
25-13 Record
65.6%
8416 Passing Yardsy
57 TDs
30 INTs
809 Rushing Yards
6 Rushing TDs
17 Fumbles
Trubisky - 43 Games & 19 Starts w/o Nagy
6-13 Record
62.6%
4612 Passing Yards
21 Passing TDs
18 INTs
371 Rushing Yards
7 Rushing TDs
12 Fumbles
Nagy is accomplished enough it's difficult to imagine him being a disaster. His track record is also spotty enough that he may not be the long term answer or a "home run". We shall see. I won't lose a minute of sleep over Matt Nagy, nor would I have been up at night dreaming about the Todd Monken offense.
Had they "lost" Harbaugh... that would have severely impacted my optimism for the upcoming season, really regardless of who they hired this cycle outside of Mike Tomlin. They have the HC, they seemingly have the QB and I'm looking forward to actually want to watch the Giants vs. feeling like an obligation (which it's felt like in recent years).
99% of coaches praise their other coaches and players. It’s extremely rare they don’t.
The other point most people are making is when he was calling plays. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong but his body of work as a play caller leaves a lot to be desired. That’s why the media and some fans bring it up. That’s all.
Trubisky - 39 Games & 38 Starts w/ Nagy
25-13 Record
65.6%
8416 Passing Yardsy
57 TDs
30 INTs
809 Rushing Yards
6 Rushing TDs
17 Fumbles
Trubisky - 43 Games & 19 Starts w/o Nagy
6-13 Record
62.6%
4612 Passing Yards
21 Passing TDs
18 INTs
371 Rushing Yards
7 Rushing TDs
12 Fumbles
think a lot of the post-nagy period was after the shoulder injury, but regardless i think nagy has a very credible resume. not perfect but he checks a lot of boxes. he is what his record is, and his record is pretty good.
This! Great point.
I mean we're talking about Trubisky and Fields FFS.
He was the HEAD COACH in Chicago - a dysfunctional organization.
He was the OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR in KC - but Reid called the plays and ran his own offense.
He is the OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR here, with NYG, calling the plays. We'll see what scheme he and Harbaugh implement. I don't think any of us know.
The larger question is why anyone should look to feel excited by coordinator hires?
Quote:
me what's out there that suggests we should be excited about this hire
The larger question is why anyone should look to feel excited by coordinator hires?
I basically said the same thing last night, especially given who was out there.
He SUCKED as the DC here in 2017 under McAdoo.
Pretty sure the Chiefs are happy with him as their DC.
Situation matters, and that's constantly overlooked by fans.
Is that exciting?
99% of coaches praise their other coaches and players. It’s extremely rare they don’t.
The other point most people are making is when he was calling plays. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong but his body of work as a play caller leaves a lot to be desired. That’s why the media and some fans bring it up. That’s all.
One, while you are correct, I don't see a lot of coaches heaping on the praise Reid has done. Also, don't you think Harbaugh really knows that Reid thinks???
Two, now do Callahan, Tanney, Day, Cooter, Kingsburgy.
He isn't tasked with managing a roster. This is Harbaugh's team and he's going to develop players ans players are going to want to play for him.
Right now Nagy's main selling point is we don't know how good he'll be running his own offense and calling the plays for a quarterback who seems like a better prospect than Trubisky and Fields.
You can trust in Harbaugh and hope for the best and also be honest with yourself that Nagy was not his first choice for a reason.
This is nonsense.
Quote:
In comment 17097664 KDavies said:
Quote:
In comment 17097651 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 17097640 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Had their best years with Nagy by far. In Trubisky's case, it was the only bit of success he had anywhere. In Smith's case, it was his best over a long career and lead the league in (low) int%, adjusted yards per attempt, and passer rating.
The issue is they all had 1 year and then disappeared. Brian Daboll and Mike Kafka had 1 year with Daniel Jones. That didn't make us a consistent offense.
They are very limited QBs, and they both competed with him as coach. It's amazing people don't understand this.
Smith had winning records with the Chiefs. They just couldn't get over the hump, so Reid drafted Mahomes. Nagy was 34-31 with Trubisky and Fields as his QBs.
He was 34-31 due to that Defense. The scoring offense was crap the final 3 years in Chicago. I am not saying he is bad because he didn't have year after year success, but there is zero other years after the first year where he looked like an NFL level playcaller.
He had a 12-4 season and 2 8-8 with Trubisky as QB. Why are we shitting on that because the team had a good defense? They had atrocious offensive talent. Do you expect 14 wins?
We are shitting on him because the guy had an offense that was in 20s (and usually below 25) 3 out of the 4 years calling plays in Chicago. If he had that here he would be run out of town.
Right now Nagy's main selling point is we don't know how good he'll be running his own offense and calling the plays for a quarterback who seems like a better prospect than Trubisky and Fields.
You can trust in Harbaugh and hope for the best and also be honest with yourself that Nagy was not his first choice for a reason.
We know he wasn't the first choice. Harbaugh has publicly admitted his first choice was Monken.
But again, as I pointed out on the "trust" thread, Monken was run out of town in Baltimore, including by the quarterback.
In addition, the other OC candidates being discussed don't have better resumes. That's why I find all of this negative reaction weird. All had warts. You can actually make the argument that Nagy was the most accomplished of the remaining candidates.
Art Stapleton, Gary Myers, and myself have suggested hiring Greg Roman as run game coordinator.
Quote:
How many times have you heard a HC bash one of their assistants? Hell even Daboll praised Wink in interviews. Same thing with a QB with an OC/QB coach. If it did happen it’s extremely rare.
99% of coaches praise their other coaches and players. It’s extremely rare they don’t.
The other point most people are making is when he was calling plays. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong but his body of work as a play caller leaves a lot to be desired. That’s why the media and some fans bring it up. That’s all.
What I worry more about is if it doesn’t work out, Dart will have to learn another offense in such a short time.
One, while you are correct, I don't see a lot of coaches heaping on the praise Reid has done. Also, don't you think Harbaugh really knows that Reid thinks???
Two, now do Callahan, Tanney, Day, Cooter, Kingsburgy.
Eric, I don’t disagree with you. I’m just stating the obvious.
We both said the other day Harbaugh was banking on Monken. He was annoyed the Browns took so long to make their decision and when he got the Browns job, it left Harbaugh trying to find his replacement. It didn’t help that there were 18 other OC openings which is completely unheard of.
It is what it is at this point. I’m just saying the negative stuff about Nagy is his stats as a play caller. We just have to hope that changes under Harbaugh and Dart.
Quote:
In comment 17097653 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 17097635 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 17097565 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
the "expert" consensus that everything good that happened in KC was due to Reid and everything bad was due to Nagy.
OK
wasn't Reid successful with KC after Nagy left for Chicago? Its one thing to say that Nagy should not get any credit whatsoever, but it is a tough sell to say that their success was due to Nagy, when 1) Nagy has left and Mahomes made two super bowls and 2) Andy Reid is a known QB guru. The bottom line is that Nagy had a chance on his own without Reid and he was not very successful. Take it for what it is worth, but I don't think you get to just say he also developed Mahommes and forget that Mahommes was being developed by the best QB coach in the business and then forget when he was not that his record with two mediocre qbs was mediocre. We will see what he does here.
When did KC win their Super Bowls? Who was the OC?
KC could have had OC Inanimate Rod and still won. Tennessee made the playoffs with Shane Bowen as DC (as well as the year prior when Bowen was the de facto play caller) and look how he did with the Giants when he did not have Mike Vrabel looking over his shoulder.
Mike, Essex said Nagy wasn't here for the SBs. That's incorrect. He has two rings as OC.
You're clearly one of the guys who thinks everything good that happened in KC was due to Reid and everything bad was due to Nagy. I will never subscribe to that kind of black-and-white thinking on any subject.
No, I said he wasnt there for "two" of the Super Bowls, the first two against SF(W) and Tampa (L). He has been there for the last three, but in 2022 was not Coordinator. I know his history. You guys on your podcast even said he had a Brian Daboll type resume and who would want a Brian Daboll, he stinks except for when he was with Josh Allen. Everywhere else he has been bad to maybe slightly above mediocre.
But again, as I pointed out on the "trust" thread, Monken was run out of town in Baltimore, including by the quarterback.
In addition, the other OC candidates being discussed don't have better resumes. That's why I find all of this negative reaction weird. All had warts. You can actually make the argument that Nagy was the most accomplished of the remaining candidates.
That's fair. I think I'm just disappointed that this is how the offensive coordinator chips fell after striking gold with Harbaugh, not that someone else would have been better.
After reviewing Monken's work with Lamar I was pretty excited for him. It sounds like it was Lamar's call for personal reasons and I think Lamar is all out of excuses now.
Yes, there are similarities between him and Daboll (who was also just hired as an OC). But what is different is that Reid wanted him back, and they kept winning SBs with him as OC.
Matt Nagy was literally the OC for the last 3 Super Bowls
He produced a winning record with Mitch Trubisky and Justin Fields as his QBs
He helped discover and develop Patrick Mahomes
He was the OC that revived Alex Smiths career
Andy Reid thought enough of him to rehire him and it paid off in 2 SBs
Yes, there are similarities between him and Daboll (who was also just hired as an OC). But what is different is that Reid wanted him back, and they kept winning SBs with him as OC.
Also different between Nagy & Daboll is their record. Nagy had a 12 win season and two 8 win seasons with absolute dogshit on offense
Trubisky, Chase Daniel, Nick Foles & Fields at QB
Jordan Howard, Tarik Cohen, David Montgomery & Khalil Herbert at RB
Allen Robinson, Taylor Gabriel, Anthony Miller, Javon Wims, Darnell Mooney, Damiere Byrd & Marquise Goodwin at WR
Trey Burton, Jimmy Graham & Cole Kmet at TE
I have friends who coach at the HS level. There’s so many times they scheme something up well and the kids just don’t execute (not that any parent wants to hear that). Aside from a wide open WR or trick play you can’t really identify that easily. There’s also times you simply get out coached.
For Nagy to have Reid and Harbaugh’s respect, he can’t suck at coaching and clearly has value. We’ll see
Quote:
me what's out there that suggests we should be excited about this hire
The larger question is why anyone should look to feel excited by coordinator hires?
This little back and forth is really all that's needed to read in this entire thread.
It's like Duggan wrote an article to simply rile up a bunch of NYG fans and you all took the bait, hook line & sinker.
Nagy largely failed Trubisky in Chicago. The blame is never totally one sided but read up on some of what happened here. He ignored Trubisky’s suggestions on what he felt comfortable with, blew up on him in front of the whole team which didn’t go well (Trubisky was well liked). When Foles got hurt Trubisky went back in and played better under the OC Lazor who was calling plays at that point. Nagy no showed an end of year meeting with Trubisky who had brought prepared notes.
He won’t be able to pull some of that as an OC which is good.
You can’t totally discount Nagy and assign all credit to Reid for Mahomes - you also cannot totally excuse him for Trubisky being a bust.
Source - ( New Window )